chispa1707 (chispa1707) wrote,
chispa1707
chispa1707

Диспут о генетике

Публикую короткий диспут
Я поначалу заявил о недоверии к датировкам генетков и сослался на открытия генетиков, широко озвученные в 1997 году. Суть в том, что реальные генетические мутации идут в 20 раз выше, чем думали. Вот список статей:

Loewe, L and Scherer, S. “Mitochondrial Eve: the plot thickens.” Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 12(11):422-423, November 1997.
Gibbons, A. “Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock”. Science 279(5347):28-29, January 2, 1998
Parsons, T.J. et al “A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region”, Nature GeneticsVol. 15: 363–368, 1997; as cited in ref. 4.
Lubenow, M.L., 1998. Recovery of Neandertal mtDNA: an evaluation. CEN Tech. J. 12(1):87–97.
Identification of the remains of the Romanov family by DNA analysis. Gill P, Ivanov PL, Kimpton C, Piercy R, Benson N, Tully G, Evett I, Hagelberg E, Sullivan K Nat Genet 1994 Feb;6(2):130-5
Central Research and Support Establishment, Forensic Science Service, Aldermaston, Reading, Berkshire, UK.
Comment in: Nat Genet 1994 Feb;6(2):113-4
How rapidly does the human mitochondrial genome evolve? Howell N, Kubacka I, Mackey DA
Am J Hum Genet 1996 Sep;59(3):501-9
Department of Radiation Therapy, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-0656, USA.
The mutation rate of the human mtDNA deletion mtDNA4977. Shenkar R, Navi di W, Tavare S, Dang MH, Chomyn A, Attardi G, Cortopassi G, Arnheim NAm J Hum Genet 1996 Oct;59(4):772-80
Division of Pulmonary Sciences and Critical Care Medicine, University of Colorado Health Science Center, Denver, USA.
Comment in: Am J Hum Genet 1996 Oct;59(4):749-55
A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region. Parsons TJ, Muniec DS, Sullivan K, Woodyatt N, Alliston-Greiner R, Wilson MR, Berry DL, Holland KA, Weedn VW, Gill P, Holland MM
Nat Genet 1997 Apr;15(4):363-8
Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Rockville, Maryland 20850, USA.
The mutation rate in the human mtDNA control region. Sigurgardottir S, Helgason A, Gulcher JR, Stefansson K, Donnelly P.
Am J Hum Genet. 2000 May;66(5):1599-609. Epub 2000 Apr 7.
deCODE Genetics, Inc., Reykjavik, Iceland 110.
Mitochondrial genome variation and the origin of modern humans. Ingman M, Kaessmann H, Paabo S, Gyllensten U.
Nature. 2000 Dec 7;408(6813):708-13.
Department of Genetics and Pathology, Section of Medical Genetics, University of Uppsala, Sweden.
A shrinking date for ‘Eve’ by Carl Wieland First published: TJ 12(1):1–3 April 1998

Получил ответ

ЦИТАТА:
С момента публикации самой "свежей" из этих статей прошло уже 15 лет.
Если Вас интересует вопрос о скорости мутаций в мтДНК и У-хромосоме в значимых для расчетов возраста предков регионах, почитайте в популярном изложении здесь http://pereformat.ru/klyosov/

Am J Hum Genet. 2000 May;66(5):1599-609. Epub 2000 Apr 7.
The mutation rate in the human mtDNA control region.
Sigurğardóttir S1, Helgason A, Gulcher JR, Stefansson K, Donnelly P.
Author information
Abstract

The mutation rate of the mitochondrial control region has been widely used to calibrate human population history. However, estimates of the mutation rate in this region have spanned two orders of magnitude. To readdress this rate, we sequenced the mtDNA control region in 272 individuals, who were related by a total of 705 mtDNA transmission events, from 26 large Icelandic pedigrees. Three base substitutions were observed, and the mutation rate across the two hypervariable regions was estimated to be 3/705 =.0043 per generation (95% confidence interval [CI].00088-.013), or.32/site/1 million years (95% CI.065-.97). This study is substantially larger than others published, which have directly assessed mtDNA mutation rates on the basis of pedigrees, and the estimated mutation rate is intermediate among those derived from pedigree-based studies. OUR ESTIMATED RATE REMAINS HIGHER THAN THOSE BASED ON PHYLOGENETIC COMPARISON. We discuss possible reasons for-and consequences of-this discrepancy. The present study also provides information on rates of insertion/deletion mutations, rates of heteroplasmy, and the reliability of maternal links in the Icelandic genealogy database.

Это абстракт самой свежей из приведенных статей. Авторы прямо указывают, что по их расчетам скорость мутаций в мтДНК выше (Выделил капслоком).

Еще одна вырезка
J Hered. 2006 Mar-Apr;97(2):107-13. Epub 2006 Feb 17.
Iberian origins of New World horse breeds.
Luís C1, Bastos-Silveira C, Cothran EG, Oom Mdo M.
Author information
Abstract

Fossil records, archaeological proofs, and historical documents report that horses persisted continuously in the Iberian Peninsula since the Pleistocene and were taken to the American continent (New World) in the 15th century. To investigate the variation within the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region of Iberian and New World horse breeds, to analyze their relationships, and to test the historical origin of New World horses, a total of 153 samples, representing 30 Iberian and New World breeds, were analyzed by sequencing mtDNA control region fragments. Fifty-four haplotypes were found and assigned to seven haplogroups. Reduced levels of variation found for the Menorquina, Sorraia, and Sulphur Mustang breeds are consistent with experienced bottlenecks or limited number of founders. For all diversity indices, Iberian breeds showed higher diversity values than South American and North American breeds. Although, the results show that the Iberian and New World breeds stem from multiple origins, we present a set of genetic data revealing a high frequency of Iberian haplotypes in New World breeds, which is consistent with historical documentation.

Это абстракт статьи о происхождении американских мустангов. Прямо указано, что число их предков сильно ограничено (прошли бутылочное горло). То есть, у мустангов очень высокая частота гаплотипов иберийских пород лошадей при низком разнообразии этих гаплотипов. Если бы иберийские породы происходили от мустангов, то было бы наоборот.

Еще один комментарий
Mol Ecol. 2010 Jan;19(1):64-78. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2009.04430.x. Epub 2009 Nov 25.
Ancient DNA reveals traces of Iberian Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages in modern Iberian horses.
Lira J1, Linderholm A, Olaria C, Brandström Durling M, Gilbert MT, Ellegren H, Willerslev E, Lidén K, Arsuaga JL, Götherström A.
Author information
Abstract

Multiple geographical regions have been proposed for the domestication of Equus caballus. It has been suggested, based on zooarchaeological and genetic analyses that wild horses from the Iberian Peninsula were involved in the process, and the overrepresentation of mitochondrial D1 cluster in modern Iberian horses supports this suggestion. To test this hypothesis, we analysed mitochondrial DNA from 22 ancient Iberian horse remains belonging to the Neolithic, the Bronze Age and the Middle Ages, against previously published sequences. Only the medieval Iberian sequence appeared in the D1 group. Neolithic and Bronze Age sequences grouped in other clusters, one of which (Lusitano group C) is exclusively represented by modern horses of Iberian origin. Moreover, Bronze Age Iberian sequences displayed the lowest nucleotide diversity values when compared with modern horses, ancient wild horses and other ancient domesticates using nonparametric bootstrapping analyses. We conclude that the excessive clustering of Bronze Age horses in the Lusitano group C, the observed nucleotide diversity and the local continuity from wild Neolithic Iberian to modern Iberian horses, could be explained by the use of local wild mares during an early Iberian domestication or restocking event, whereas the D1 group probably was introduced into Iberia in later historical times.

Таких статей полно. И я ни за что не поверю, что все эти ученые сговорились для того, чтобы опровергнуть гипотезу Игоря Грека...

МОЙ КОММЕНТАРИЙ:
Итак, вырезка из первой статьи признает "натягивание" генетической хронологии на два порядка. Уже хорошо. Однако, я не вижу, чтобы это хоть как-то повлияло на датирование кострищ и обглоданных друзьями костей первобытного человека и прочие фундаментальные основы науки история. Покаялись и оставили все как есть.

Вторая вырезка интереснее, поскольку говорит о "бутылочном горлышке". Я как-то давно рассматривал этот вопрос, и выводы получились неожиданные.

http://chispa1707.livejournal.com/78544.html

Какое отношение имеет к делу третья вырезка, честно говоря, не понял.
Subscribe
  • Post a new comment

    Error

    Anonymous comments are disabled in this journal

    default userpic

    Your reply will be screened

    Your IP address will be recorded 

  • 17 comments